HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutes Administrative meeting 102273ADMINISTRATIVE MEETING OCTOBER 22, 1973
HELD CITY HALL, 10900 N. HILITARY TRAIL, PBG 8:00 P.M.
Councilman Wiley: This is one of the things that I had in my mind when we talked
administratively -ten months ago we had a meeting amongst the Council and City
Manager at that time. We resolved some understandings or we asked questions - --
(end of tape) The Manager had a better understanding of what the Council expected
of him and in turn the Council had a better understanding of how the administration
of the City is supposed to work. Things in the past several months here - prior
to George coming on Board - we had occasion to have a member of the Council to act
as an Acting City Manager in relationship between Councilmen and City Manager and
the Department heads took on a different business like arrangement than it would
normally with a new Manager on board. So one of the objectives I have in mind
tonight is to try and clarify for George exactly how we feel - we would like to
see things run - how we would like to see the relationship between the Council and
himself and the Council in return. One of the things I would expect on a letter
like Jack put out was - anything that goes out to the public across your desk for
acknowledgement administratively - it doesn't have to show this on the face of
the document but as far as the Council is concerned if you read the Code and
everything else, we have one person we deal with - that is the Manager - the
Manager in turn hires and fires everybody - some of them with the concurrence of
the Council. The Manager is the key administrator - he is the Chief Administrative
officer - the Mayor is the Chief Executive Officer. This is a subtle difference.
DeLonga - Let me interrupt for a minutes. I think a lot of times people get
confused as to the type of Government we have here. It is not a mere Council -
Government whereby all the business of the City goes through the office of the
Mayor. And then each one of the Council is responsible for say,a department,for
example I be responsible for the Police Department - Walter would be responsible
for the Public Works Department. It is not that way. I think we have a City
Manager - Council type form of Government. It is completely different. Everything
has to come through your office and you in turn keep us informed.
Mr. McMahon - I understand - I agree though that there is
DeLopga - I think we have to make the public understand . When they want to bring
subjects to the Council they don't come directly to the Council. They come to the
City Manager.
Wiley - Perhaps one of the things we should take a look at, hopefully the result
of this whole discussion will be a constructive self - analysis with corrective
action, is that each of us now is assigned certain individual projects, individual
relationships with the Boards - called differenent things - Council representative`
to a Board - Council coordinator to a Board - whatever you want to call it.
I think I have expressed my thoughts on the thing generally and let me speak -
when I say something here it is my own thoughts for discussion purposes - I have
no basis - I tried to go through the Code earlier tonight and none of this stuff
is spelled out there .
Martino - with the moratorium, I presume - the suit
Wiley - yes - I have no basis for some of things I feel - other than I feel
this is the way to do things. Subject to discussion and that is why I am going
to bring it up. I don't know the answer - otherwise we would have ..... it before
and we would have been operating that way - that is the frame we are in here.
There is nothing in the Code other than specifying very explicitly what the
Manager's responsibilities are and the charge of the Mayor would be a general
supervisor of the whole City in general - both of them with somewhat seemingly
dual capacities. I have been through here - Jim has been through - John is Mayor
now and it is difficult to interpret exactly what the Code does say. But you
have to start and look at the premise that the City gives a Manager - Council form
of Government and this puts the prime focus on the Manager. There is no special
there are
authority given to the Mayor - special responsibilities given to the Mayor in the
event certain things happen. And I think we have to draw that fine line.
There are a few things that have happened to prompt the discussion - hopefully we
can bring those things up without being indicative or anything here. Take the
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comments for what they are trying to achieve. Most recently I had occasion to
see correspondence come into the City that the Manager never saw,until after the
correspondence had been relayed to the Board - this is the Planning and Zoning
Commission. This is a result of John being a little over zealous - trying to
expedite .. through the City
McMahon - Walter I would like to clarify one thing on that
Kiedis - Just hold your horses
!thefts_ Clatify that will you George.
McMahon - Yes this is what I want to do.
Wiley - I don't want to make accusations or make statements that sound like
accusations. I would like to say to you fellows - we are meeting here tonight -
the paper is here - we will ask him to use discretion where he can - he reports
what he hears. I will ask for an explanation. It didn't appear that the procedure
was clear - it didn't appear that we did something right - let's explain it so we
understand it. And then on we will go along and do things the way we decide.
McMahon - On that correspondence that I did not receive - I did a little background
on it to find out why because I didn't want anything like this to occur again.
There was a check attached to it as a filing fee. My Secretary took the check and
the letter thinking it had to be deposited back to the City Clerk. At that point
it never got back to me. She should have brought the letter back - she realized
that - she indicated in the future it would come across my desk first. To that end
I want to explain what had happened there. As to what happened in regards to the
letter being referred to a committee or whatever after that, she had nothing to
do with that. That is something else.
Kiedis _ I will elaborate on that . At that point when she already had the
letter it indicated to her that George had already had the letter and had passed
it on to her for deposit of the check etc. So then it became ammunition for the
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Planning and Zoning Board. And when you called that day
Wiley - I didn't call. I was called
Kiedis - You were called but not for that thing, you were called for something else
Wiley - No sir I was called very explicitly around four o'clock in the afternoon
and Alice asking me
Kiedis - Ok let's say this
Wiley - She was directed to poll the Council would it be allright to send this
letter to the Planning and Zoning Commission and my response was yes.
Kiedis - That was the intent of the thing . I couldn't remember if you called her
or she called you. At this point - the meeting was the following day and to
me - we should be as expeditious as possible to commence these things and I asked
her since you were the Council representative on the Planning andZoning Committee
that she ask you if you felt that we could get it on the agenda for the following
night. So she did this - you said yes and I think I said while you are on the
phone with check with Jimmy to see if he has any objection.
DeLonga - I got a note to call City Hall. I called back and I agreed.
Wiley - That bit - I have got nothing to do with the agenda of the Board.
Kiedis - The agenda of the Board - who does prepare the agenda of the Board.
Wiley - The Chairman of the Board.
Kiedis - The Chairman of the Board - how do they know what is in the hands of the
City - how do they know what correspondence comes into the City. How does the
Chairman of the Board know: what comes in.
Wiley - The City Manager in my mind would refer that correspondence -
Kiedis _ Why did you say yes
Wiley - I thought I was being asked as a Councilman - did I have any objection
to sending it to the Board.
Kiedis - No that wasn't the question -
Wiley - That was what I was asked.
Kiedis - I don't know how the question - I asked her - I don't know what the
agenda has on but I think this thing ought to go on the agenda. Ask Walt if he
has any objection.
Wiley - That wasn't the question . No Councilman has anything to do with what
goes on the agenda of any Board's meeting. We merely are there to transmit
things to the Chairman if they want to take it up at that meeting or subsequent.
meetings - that is their prerogative.
Kiedis - That is true but they can reject or accept. if that thing is on the
agenda and they don't wish to consider that is up to the Board. So what is the
big deal.
Wiley - There are two things that bother me here. First we should establish the
procedure when communications come into the City hall. It has already been
established they all come into the City Manager no matter who they are addressed
to - be it any individual Councilman, Mayor the Vice Mayor, the City Attorney
or the City Clerk or the Building official - whatever - if it is something that
deals with City business it goes to the City Manager He in turn does what he
sees as his job with it including verifying jurisdiction of the Board, verifying
that all of the procedures that have been pre- established such as the requirments
of the filing fee, the legal description, and whatever it might be in the case
of a zoning hearing, are all established. He then get back to the petitioner,
he can in his judgement refer to the Board. When he does that I personally would
like to be advised of it. I think the whole Council wants to be advised of it.
DeLonga - We have already established the procedure with the Planning and Zoning
Commission.
Wiley - No we haven't - I disagree. We set this up - let me tell you why it is
wrong. We set this up as a proposal to eliminate one of the public hearings.
DeLonga - No that is not what I am talking about.
Wiley - That is really the whole premise this thing was set up on. RAI petitions
to be received by the City Council and then referred to the Planning and Zoning
Commission.
DeLonga - That may be part of that recommendation.
Wiley - That was part of that recommendation. The Council took it upon themselves
to decide that any petitions going to the Planning and Zoning Commission would
All of this together with any change in the Council line up should provide new
leadership, new ideas, new legislative programs and all these things. I waived
that on the positive side and I said I will go along with it.and see what happens.
Well the time aspect has come to the point that I get feed back from people in
the City.
Kiedis .. What do you mean by people in the City, Walter
Wiley - I will quote - Chuck Breder on his meeting over here last Thursday. He and
Mr. Gibson came over here and ran into you. His comment was John is always at
City Hall - no matter what I go over there for he is always there.
Kiedis - Let me stop here for just one minute. This is onjy the second time that
I have ever seen Chuck Breder at City Hall.
Wiley - the whole point is not to bring up specific cases, but set forth the way
we would like to see things done. The point being - the Code specifically
prohibits us from directing any Department Head to do anything. You can correct
me if you will Sill. My interpretation is that the Councilmen will not tell
the Director of Public Works what to do, he will not be there when the men are
working. He can stand by and watch - but he doesn't talk to them. He doesn't tell
the City Clerk what to do , he doesn't tell the Police Chief what to do, etc.
If he sees something he doesn't like he goes and tells the City Manager. And
basically he absence himself from the City Ball. He really doesn't have thatmuch
business over there. That is the reason why we pay a full time manager.
Kiedis - "here does it say in the City Code that he absen-r himself from the City
s all.
Wiley - This is my philospphy. I am trying to draw the fine line in terms of
how does a Councilman diligently perform his duties and become fully informed
and make an intelligent decision. And where do you stop and cross over to the
point that you are interferring with the City administration and not letting the
people perform as freely as they should be, as effectively as they should be
under the direction of the Manager. It is an undefined hard line to draw.
in my estimation I think you have crossed it. The whole purpose of the meeting
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pass through the Council - not for approval - just to keep the Council informed as
to what business was being transacted by the Planning and zoning Commission.
Just to be aware.
Wiley - Here is where we apparently differ then - because I feel that it is the
Managers job to convey to the various boards the business that pertains to them
based on his understanding of our directives.
DeLonga - I don't object to that at all.
Wiley - His responsibility is to inform us. Now we meet every week - I can't
conceive of any Boad taking action within a one weeks period of time that he
hasn't told us about something - that something has gone amiss that we can bring
it back. I personally don't want to get in the situation where we appear to be
judging the relative merits of the issue prior to sending it to the Board with
proper jurisdiction.
DeLonga - As far as I am concerned - it is just a matter of being informed as to
what is going on in the City.
Wiley - the second part of this particular thing that bothers me is the fact
that John is in Alice's office discussing that particular issue - and right there
in the Code it specifically prohibits any member of the Council from dealing with
Department Heads without telling the Manager what is going on. Now this is a big
point - the big point that I call interference with the administration - let me
go back to the reorganization meeting - there was some thirty minutes of quite
long deliberation on my part - and I think all the things that were going through
my mind wifil eventually come out tonight. One of the things was the fact that you
have a lot of time. So you are able to be around town. I felt that if you
applied yourself that would be a terrific asset to the City. That you could get
around - you could take on to the things that the Mayor is required to do - you
could attend the social functions - the ribbon cuttings and the Chamber of
Commerce breakfasts - all of these things which would be in a publicity standpoint
a terrific asset to the City. In addition to being able to get out and do a
really thorough job of finding out what was going on.and informing us.
-F -
hopefully tonight will define that line to where George doesn't lave to say
y I sure wish I didn't have two directors of public Works - I wish John wasn't
interferring or John wasn't over here so much. John wasn't handling this or
John wasn't handling that. It bothers me.
Kiedis - May I say something Walter. You say that you perhaps resent my being
over here at the City Hall - I come here once in the morning and once in the
afternoon. But if you can tell me what difference it makes if I am here in
person to talk to somebody and I do not direct Department Heads in anything - what
difference does it make whether I am here or I call from Pratt & Whitney on the
telephone and I spend an hour on the telephone discussing City business with
either the City Manager or some City employee _ would you tell me that. Many
times Walter you call the City Clerk direct. Now what difference does that make
whether I am here and talking to her or you call her on the telephone.
DeLonga - Let me say this - I call George and talk to him.
McMahon - I think you all do.
Kiedis - I don't direct him Jimmy - it is conversational and we discuss things
much the same as you discuss them with Bob or Walt discussess them. If you
fear that my being around here for 30 or 35 minutes in the morning and 30 or 35
minutes in the afternoon is hurting the City, I would like to hear it from George.
And if George felt if my presence here to check the minutes perhaps - Alice asked
me to check over the minutes - which is one of the things which you always did.
Now what objection is it. I an curious - it just seems like - I can't quite
determine what the problem is - I don't interfere with the building department
I never give them a directive - not one single time - I have never discussed it
I have never told the Chief anything - I do not go down there and tell them what
to do - how to do their job - ask them questions - or anything like that. You
may ask Leonard Devine - the same thing. Anything that is discussed is discussed
in a discussionary way.
Martino - I would like to hear from George.
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McMahon - Well first of all - You have put me in the middle. I will be honest -
I will be frank. A lot of times - I am directing it to Council in general.
No matter who it is or what it is that they call on to discuss with me I think
that I have told each of you and all of you together - that if there was a
definite conflict of interest where someone issued a directive to me to do something
as an individual - I would bring it up as a Council matter. But I would advise
the person giving me the directive first that there was a problem and try to
resolve the problem with him and then if I can't then I would being it up to the
Council. I think I haee told all of you that - from time to time. No matter what
it was or what concerned me. By virtue of the fact that you call or are here or
whatever - and I am not taking the middle of the line on this thing, but each
thing that anybody asks me takes time. It takes time and if it is important
which I assume it is, or you wouldn't ask me to do it - you have never asked me
anything that is a conflict with my authority or responsibility.or my position
-� here in the City. But each time, it does take up time. whether you are here or
whether you are not. John by being here - of course is around more than any of
you are and he by being here has questions that are on his mind P I haven *t paid
close attention to all the questions that he has asked everybody but I assuue
that it is something he wanted answers to. So certainly this takes time up - as
to whether it interfers with the City business or administrative process I think
this really depends on how you want to look at it. From a time consumption
standpoint sure - but no matter what question is asked of me it is the same thing.
John is here more often - spends more time and therefor the questions that he
asks or the things that he is involved with certainly take up more time.
I don't know if this totally answers your question but it is the way I see it.
Hartino - I want to be more direct with you George. I want to ask you point
blank - is John interferring with your job by being here. I would like a simple
yes or no.
McMahon - I would say sometimes yes - but that could be said again of anybody, Mike
Ki.edis - Are you talking about a telephone call.
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McMahon - Well things that are being asked. When you say interfere a it
interfers with a thought process - absolutely. If I am in the middle of planning
something or I am in the middle of doing something that needs to be done in
regards to the City and somebody comes in my office and asks me to do something
yes.
Martino - I am not talking about thought process - I am not talking - I am giving
you a direct question. I am going to put it to you another way. With John being
in the City Hall as much as supposedly he is here, is he disrupting the
administration of the City of which you are in charge.
McMahon - That is a tough question to answer Mike.
Martino - I know it is a tough question George and I hate to put you on the spot
like this. But as long as we are here - we are all mature men - I want to put
the cards on the table and I don't want to have to discuss this again. I want
everybody to understand what we are doing around here.
McMahon - fides I understand what you are asking but he doesn't per se give directives
to my Department Heads and he hasn't directly that I can think of, ordered an
employee - it depends on what you are thinking of here - but ordered employees
to do things a certain way. He suggested - to give you an opinion on the thing
you have to understand the facts behind it. That he said I would do it this way
or have you considered doing it this way - or I thank it is better to do it this
way. Now if you call that in£erferring with administrative process then I would
have to say he is interferring with administrative process. That has been the
extent of it by virtue of the fact that John does spend a lot of time here, he
does deal directly with Alice Jean or anyone else that he would call on for
information - most#y I guess it has been Alice Jean - hasn't it John.
Kiedis - Well if you say I call on her for information or she calls on me for
help.
McMahon - Whatever is the case you do spend a lot of time with Alice Jean back there
Sure this takes time away from Alice Jean's normal routine things and puts her
behind the 8 ball. I guess you could say in that respect that would interfere with
an administrative process. If it takes time away from routine things. I don't
know how important it is for John to know the answers that he wants to ask her.
I assume he must have a reason for asking - she doesn't come back and tell me every
question that he asks her. But I know that it does take time. it is a question
that -
Martino - I will buy what you are saying. In my opinion I am going to give you
my thoughts as Walt and John have given theres. Number one , a personal visit
by a Councilman be he a Mayor, Vice Mayor or just a Councilman to City Hall is
disrupting because number one - the City Manager sees the Councilman coming in
or the Recreation Director sees the Councilman coming in or the girls in the back
see the Councilman coming in and I have seen it myself and I am not that much
around, they will perk up, they will move the train of what they are doing and
they are wondering what is this guy coming in going to ask me now. This is my
philosophy. A telephone call to the Manager, as far as I am concerned, or to
any one of these Department Heads is less to disrupt them, than a personal visit
by any one of us five. And it just stands to reason - I will tell you another
thing - I am not as popular as the rest of the Council and I am not as widely
known and I have taken walks into the Public Works Department and walked around
there and people have not even put their head up from the work they were doing.
Simply because they don't know me. But let John or Jim or Walt walk down there
and those heads are up. This is the point I am trying to make.
McMahon - Well I think - first of all - all of you realize that you probably a lot
more active with the City than perhaps many other councils are. I don't see this
as being becessarily by itself disruptive - I think you are very interested people.,
concerned about the City. That is the way I looked at it when you interviewed me for
the job and I think I stated that. Ts for the concern regarding this you know
John is here a lot - there is no denying that - and it is a matter of how - I told
you before that if there was a definite specific problem that I would take it up
with John first and come to you.
Any things that I have had a problem with, John and I discuss and I think we
reconciled them. That is how I felt about it.
Marino - So from the conversation then, personally I am going to draw from your
statements that John being here is not over destructing the function of the City or
your job as a City Manager.
McMahon - It is time consuming, sure it is. Anybody that spends a considerable amount
of time for the very reason that you stated - the fact that he is a Mayor or a
Councilman - is time consuming.
Martino - Would you like to have it less.
McMahon - Certainly.
Kiedis - I don't have any objection to this at all - none whatsoever - I just feel
is the trend of this thing in keeping - is it proper. I can stay out of here
completely but I don't think that is my job or any Councilman's job, Bill - I really
don't. Now you perhaps feel differently. I don't feel that the City Hall as a
building is something that everybody on the City Council must stay out of. But I
have no objection whatsoever to coming here less but if I do it means in some cases,
for instance, I would have to call the City Clerk it the minutes are prepared - if she
would like to have me review them. Really I have no objection to this whatsoever.
To me it takes up time. ...
Martino - I just learned something now, John. Why does the Mayor have to review the
minutes.
Kiedis - well somebody has to review them.
Martino - Why, the place to review them is at home and when we get to the Council...
McMahon - My understanding is one of the responsibilities I have is prepare the
agenda in cooperation with the Mayor. And we have been doing that. Second I
understand it is my job to review the minutes, make minor changes, not in contents,
and the minutes are sent to each of you for further review. Now as to whether you
—,need two people to review them the same day, that is up to you.
Kiedis - This is something that has been done by Walter ...
Martino- I don't care who did it - I don't think it is necessary.
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Wiley - I never reviewed any minutes when I was Mayor until after I got them in the
Tuesday night mail drop. And if there were minor changes I would let it go until
''Thursday night - if it was something that had to require going back and listening to
the tapes I would give Alice a call sometime Wednesday or Thursday and point it out
to her and say would you look into it so when she came in we didn't have to take a
lot of time in the Council meeting going through it. I have this same opportunity
that every other Councilman to look at the minutes at the same time.
Kiedis - What are you saying Walter - you are saying the minutes are altered or
something.
Wiley - No - she presents to us Tuesday night what she thinks is the draft of what
she takes off the tapes. Each one of us when we go through it look at it and
invariably we will find something in there to comment on. I usually wait until
Thursday night or I will call her up during the day. That constituted my review.
It was the same comment I would make Thursday nights. The whole point is though
the general consensus of us is that we don't want over abundance of Councilman
activity in here. Certainly I think everyone of us has the right to be here whenever
we are here on what is the business of the hour. I have never on occasion found it
necessary to be over here in the morning and the afternoon every day, and I have
been off around Town a couple of weeks in a row, including when I was Mayor. I just
didn't find that much to do.
DeLonga - Let me say something here. I think the City Managers job is a very difficult
one because he doesn't have one boss to work - he has five of us to work for. And I
think naturally we are all going to talk to him about City business. But I think we
should be considerate of his time and his efforts because he is working for us and
Tae is working for the people in the City. We ought to stay out of his hair as much
as possible and give the guy a chance - whether it is John or anybody else I don't
think the City Hall should be a hang out for Councilman. I think it is disruptive
,,,caving us around here. If we have business certainly we should be here, if we don't
have any business here we should stay out of here. That is my feeling.
-1�Z-
Wiley - This is one thing I wish George would tell us - in terms of yes the only way
we can communicate is by phone and perhaps we have a quicker access by phone -- If
you would tell us - I would prefer you guys to cell me at 8:30 in the morning or
after lunch or at 4:00 or call and tell Jackie I would like to hear from you today
and then you call back at your leisure. I wish you would tell us that.
McMahon - I would like to bring something up here for what it is worth. Inasmuch as
it involves me. I tryed to do this at the very beginning and to some degree it
worked. For example - let me say this. I have never considered questions that you
asked me ridiculous or contrary to the Council Manager form of Government. I never
felt it was infringing on the professionalism of the Manager or the inte grity of the
Council or the integrity of the City. in regards to organizing this type of thing
I tryed to set up a quorum whereby problems of the City, complaints, other things like
a
that could be referred to me in /systematic way and scheduled properly. Whether it be
a minor thing at one end of the City or a major thing at the other end of the City
I try to set priorities in terms of what I feel is important for the health, safety
and welfare first and then behind that the esthktics which needs to be taken care of.
Primarily putting first things first. I may not be able to attend to your requests
immediately but at least by having some advance notice of this - or at least having
the thing organized in that manner - it gives me a great deal more opportunity to
plan for. And that to some degree has worked out fairly well and anything that would
come into that method of work ing things is fine. If you have something of an
emergency nature or you need to know something I have no objections at all if you call
me and I will try to do everything I can to answer your question.
DeLonga - Let me cite an example. The system you have established is very useful.
Something did happen and I don't know if you are even aware of it. I just found out
about it today myself, over to the ballfield Saturday night. I had an ocassion to
call George last week and tell him about the sparking on the electric service wires
,._jver at Plant Drive. I don't know what action you took on that - I didn't follow it up.
McMahon - I took immediate action because that was something that required attendance.
DeLonga - Do you know that Saturday night they had to have the Florida Power and Light
- /s --
people come out because something happened over there. We could have had a very
dangerous situation.
McMahon - Well something like that I would hope that you would call me right away.
DeLonga - Well I did - it is the type of thing where it has some effort on the welfare
of the community where someone could be injured I expect that we have some immediate
response. Just so you know - that is the type of thing that I want to fill out the
forms. I don't carry the forms to work with me - I don't stop at City Hall every
day and drop these things off. I feel in a situation like that it warrants a phone
call. In my conversations with George I try to limit my phone calls to things of
this nature. I know when I was Mayor I called Bob Carlson once a day and we spent
about a half hour on the phone and that was it . Half hour a day we planned - went
over what the days plans would be. we exchanged ideas on the thing.
McMahon - There are a number of things here that I think you as a Council have
indicated a preference toward priorities and hopefully soon some of these priorities
,_,will be put in place in regards to Revenue spending and what you consider the more
difficult or more valuable tasks are for the City in the course of the next pear or
two or three. These are the things I plan on spending my most time on, plus trying
to get us an effective organization as possible and this means I have to spend time
out in the field which I have been trying to spend more time. I think you indicated
when you hired me that you expected me to spend at least an equal amount if not more,
depending on needs, out in the field.
DeLonga - The point I am trying to make - on routine matters let the City Manager alone.
If something that directly effects someones can on very short notice, then we talk
to this man.
that
Wiley - I don't think there are any of us /don't want to know what the pulse of the City
is - but we don't have to know it at the exact instant that the heart beats. The
weekly report that you give us has worked out quite well. This is all I say - meaning
(-
when I say I would like to be informed of what is going on. I put more responsibility
on the Manager - I do expect the Mayor to occasionally report to the Council on things
/( -
that come up that he has found out about or been involved in, the Manager hasn't
reported on. But I don't think it is the responsibility of the Mayor to constantly
call everybody either.
Kiedis - You are contradicting yourself now - you expect me to canvass the City and
report to you and yet you are saying the Manager is the one that is supposed to take
care of all the ordinary things of the day.
Wiley - He is supposed to take care of them yes. But if he doesn't know about it, it
is up to us to tell him.
Kiedis - If anything unusual had happened why - as when I received the notice of the
suit from Chudnow, I called you Friday evening and I called Mike and I called Jim.
Outside of that the other things I wouldn't bother with because they are not of that
type. I can say this though Walt - that - I wish George you had said something to
that effect.
McMahon - well John - I have never asked the question before - when you and I talked
from time to time - I think I have tried to explain this the best as I see it. I
vwould be remiss to say anything less than that. Whether it was M ke in here or Walt
or no matter who it was I would say the same thing. By the mere virtue of the fact
that you are Mayor, you are a Councilman and for the very reason that Mike said -
the fact that you are around the City - people are going to pay a lot more attention
to you than they would anyone else walking in and out of hire. 5o naturally it is
going to take time.
Kiedis - I don't have any objections or anything like that. But normally when we do
discuss anything it is something relative to the City problems and I didn't think
that we belabored anything - you yourself have called me in when I wasn't even ...
McMahon - well that happens - you are here sure -- I felt if there was a definite
problem, John I would try and take it up with you first. And I feel I have done that.
Kiedis - I think these things are good to clear the air. I don't feel anything other
- .,_Chan being very happy to go along with *hat you Gentlemen have suggested.
Now can we go on to ...
Wiley - Can I pick on George for a minute. Refresh my memory as to how we left this -
the move of the City offices.
`J McMahon - I am going to go over to the building department . Alice Jean, the City
Clerk is going to go over there.
Wiley - What was the comment when we left the issue that you were going over to the
building department. -- in terms of the walls.
Martino- you may not like it.
McMahon - I know I am going to like it.
Wiley - I know you are going to like it. Now what is the reason we had a man working
premium time to put the wall up over there.
McMahon - I asked Leonard to have it done and he had the guy come in.
Wiley - But why is there a wall up there that was constructed over the week -end by
Joe and some guy I never saw before. We are paying premium time, paying an outsider
apparently - this was my own conjecture - the way we left it Thursday night, it was
my impression that we were going to move and try it, we were not going to worry about
tearing walls down, and the subject of putting up a new wall was going to be held off.
And all of a sudden the cost of the wall, the cost of the premium time - how come.
McMahon - Well I have to move - we have the telphone coming in number one.
Wiley - We agreed - no problem to moving - it was your bag to do your thing -
I thought the impression was you were going to go over and try it for awhile and see
how things work out before we made an significant renovations such as tearing down
walls and putting up new walls.
DeLonga - This is what we decided at the Council meeting.Thursday night.
Wiley - The thing that bothered me when I talked to Joe and he says my Doctor told me
working
this morning not to work. We have a man who is questionable on his health and /overtime
on a project that has to done _ it is a priority -
Wiley _ I said priority what - there is no ¢iority.
_,,AcMahon _ I didn't say it had to be a priority. I asked Leonard if he could get the
job done within the next couple of weeks.
Wiley - Well who approved the overtime.
McMahon - I guess it would be me
Wiley - the responsibility
McMahon - That is mine.
Wiley - Who hired the outside man to help Joe. How much is that costing us.
McMahon - I didn't hire the outside guy but I am responsible for it.
Wiley - The whole thing I pres-- is being done in the order of expediency but it has
an ere of hurry up and get it done before the Council finds out. And that aspect of it .,
I don't think that is there at all.
McMahon - No that wasn't the intention
Wiley - Let me make that clear - I don't think that is there. when something like that
happens it can't help but cross my mind. What is he trying to do - he told us one thing
last night and now he has two guys working over the week end to get something done.
It doesn't stack up.
McMahon - I asked that the job be done in a couple of weeks and Apparently Leonard
—'felt that he could get the Job done and he did ask them to come in over the week end
and do it.
Wiley - They were doing a find job and all that
Kiedis - Do you know what the cost of this is going to run to
McMahon - yes I have a rough idea.
Wiley - Where are you getting the money.
McMahon - I got it in the Public Works .. that is where I intended to take the money
out of.
Wiley - It is generally what you said and I hope you like it over there.
McMahon - I know exactly what I warted to do over there
Wiley - It just bothers me you had such a turn around in telling us one thing on
Thursday night and then Friday these guys are apparently out buying the wood, panels
and everything - where was the breakdown in communications
McMahon - the break down was with me on that - I am responsible for the whole thing
I asked him to put together something and I said I would like to get some ideas as to
cost and something done within the next couple of weeks - that is the way it was.
From there it involved into the fact that Leonard said well I have ordered the wall
board you need for the office and he says we will get the job done.
Wiley - There are a couple of aspects of the thing that is disturbing from a long term
permanent standpoint, and it can be corrected so it doesn't bother men but it is the
approach to the thing that bothers me. And it is typical of Leonard -
McMahon - well it is my fault Walt, not Leanards.
some of the things you have done
Wiley - It is typical of other things that have happened,(- -The impels iveness of the
thing in not getting it thoroughly planned out and not realizing whether the air
conditioning is adequate and cutting across the light over there - changing things
around.
McMahon - We did consider all that.
Wiley - The wall terminates right in the middle of a pane of glass. Let's get off hhe
subject and say it bothered me.
DeLonga - I saw the Public Works truck in there Saturday but I really didn't pay much
,_,,attention.to what it was doing.
McMahon - When you asked me about the thing - I said no they are getting ready for me
to move when you asked me about it before. When you said what are they doing moving
you over the week -end. I said no they are getting ready for me to move.
Wiley - I saw the truck backed in over there and I thought something happened
DeLonga - No I didn't talk to you about it George.
McMahon - Saturday night
DeLonga - Oh Saturday night that's right - I did Saturday night.
Kiedis - What did they do just work Saturday George or what
McMahon - Yes they worked Saturday - that is when they essentially got all the framing
up. Joe is there tonight after 4:30 and I told Leonard that it wasn't that type
priority because I don't expect to move for two weeks - first of all they have to
moe the communications over there.
Wiley - Isn't it this guy that we pay full time to do that kind of work on. Why is the
guy working premium time.
McMahon - Quite frankly he is not capable of doing the work.
-- ,)o -
Wiley - Why did we hire him then.
McMahon - When we hired him, he said he was capable, and from everything I could
gather he appeared to have the qualifications for doing that. But I will be honest
with you he is not capable of doing the work.
Wiley - Well who is the guy they got off the street that has worked with him for
maAy years - he told me he worked for him like 10 to 12 years - then he kind of blushed
and said I didn't recognize you without your coat and tie on. From then on it was
a different conversation.
McMahon - To the best of my knowledge they never knew each other before. Leonard
knew him and Leonard was the one who got him here to do the work that Joe wasn't able
to do. When Leonard and I discussed this - I said this is essentially what we hired
him for and I assumed that you were watching him in other types of work throughout the
City to determine whether or not he was capable. This is the reason we have a six
month probationary period. And we brought the man under -- I question one thing and
I questioned it a lot more than I am going to be willing to talk about tonight to the
v extent that I know this man is not capable that we have hired to do that work. My
next thought on this was is he capable of learning within the 6 month period of time
to bring him up to the proficiency that I would expect of the job.
DeLonga How much are we paying him a month, George.
McMahon - We are paying him $170 something a week. And we hired him because of the
qualifications that are required for that job and he indicated he was hired to Leonard
that he was hired as a custodian to do basically maintenance work, and that is very
much contrary to what he and I discussed when I hired him.
DeLonga - Everybody should read that job description before they are hired.
McMahon- As fax as an error in judgement goes in this case, Walt, again I am personnel
manager so I will accept the responsibility to that extent and I plan on giving the
man an ample peiihdd of time to prove himself and so far he hasn't.
" Wiley - That aspect of it never crossed my mind.
it
McMahon - I am remiss in - -- I did not expect /to be handled on that type of a crash
program when I originally outlined the project to Leonard. I told him what I would
like to do is get some estimates and cost in this thing and find out if the job could
be done within the next couple of weeks - first I don't have even a specific date
when they are going to change the communications equipment over. Second of all,
I would have had to work completely in the open space over there with no office
Kiedis - Did you have any idea they were going to work over the week end or Saturday.
McMahon - Leonard said to me Friday afternoon - I am thinking of having Joe come in
tomorrow and do the work on the thing. I said well it is not that kind of a priority
project and he said well I have other things scheduled for him and I want to get it
done with. So that is essentially what he did. I assumed we are not paying him
per se premium time - I assume that we will be using comp time on this. This is what
Leonard and I had talked about in cases like this. There is a directive out before
where overtime is authorized before by me it is not official overtime.
Kiedis - You can't hardly renege on that can't you. If you told him to come in on
Saturday you are almost obligated to pay him time and a half.
McMahon - But this is the understanding I have on projects that require additional
time - this is essentially how we work other things like that.
Kiedis - That isn't really the subject.
McMahon - I deserve every bit of that - you are right. I shouldn't have gone ahead
with the petition inasmuch as you had indicated that why don't you try it out first.
But I plan on staying over there for one thing and I had no office space other than
being out in the open.
Wiley - I don't want to get in the position of designingyour petition or anything else
I am just concerned that on Thursday night you tell me one thing and on Saturday I
see a guy working unapproved overtime apparently on a project we have no knowledge of.
Kiedis - This proposal for procedures regarding petitions and public hearings that
Walt wrote May 7th of this year. I was talking to Bill outside and I thought it would
be a good thing if Bill perhaps from the Code and from his own know how and from whht
- lalter has written here that he prepare a suggested procedure regarding petitions and
public hearings and both the Council and the Planning and Zoning Board be made aware
or at least we could first discuss it, if we agree on it, we could submit it to the
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Planning and Zoning Commission for their comments and see if we can't get something
that would be uniformly agreeable to both the Council and the Planning and Zoning
Commission.
Wiley - I agree with you. Procedures should be established for the Planning and
Zoning Commission and the Zoning Board of Appeals since they are both identical
type of information. That proposal is just that a propsal - something that we put
together prior to our passing Ordinance 15. What happened was when we passed
Ord. 15 we were going to take the provision that was in there up until the last
hearing on eliminating the second hearing - on which this whole thing is based on
one public hearing. Bill wrote this - at that time - it is totally void now in the
sense it deals with one public hearing which is now not allowed. So basically what
we are doing is going back to clarification of the existing procedure
Kiedis - Bill could you take that and with this or without it and prepare us something
like that so that we could review it and submit It to the Planning and Zoning Board.
--So we would have a peaceable means of following through. Because obviously we have
some objections from either side and it seems like the better we can get together
Wiley - Isn *t there really only one aspect of this thing that .... the question
and that is the timing basically of when we refer something to them and when they
send something back to us. The procedures and the duties of the Planning and Zoning
Commission explicitly have been outlined by a memo that George Baldwin wrote ..
Kiedis - Except that there is no time on there.
Bill no that is something I was going to explore.
Wiley - This is something the Council should set and this is the end of that whole bit
of entire board things that I am going to put together in terms of procedures, in
which
terms of requesting priorities of what the boards work ont in turn is aschedule and
a timetable based on our desires. This is what you are getting at. It is a question
of how expediently they should handle it.
Kiedis - I am not thinking of a time table so much but I think that when a question is
posed them that there should be some limit as to how long they may consider - that they
should be able to respond within a given length of time. - whether it is four weeks
-�)-3-
or six weeks or two weeks whatever you think. I think that Bill has experienced in
the past with Planning and Zoning and other.... I would like something that would
be workable, usable and it would give us an answer within a reasonable length of time
and also would give the Planning andZoning guide lines that they would attempt to
follow.
Bill Brant - May I make a couple of observations here. There are several things
possibly lacking in our code. Let us use the County - we are a small City. They have
a tight docket - in other words if you don't have your petition filed, at least one
month - in other words prior to - say for the November hearing - they meet the first
Tuesday of every month - unless you have your petition filed for the first Tuesday
of October proceding that November only by a vote of the Board can they or will they
consider your petition - there is a deadline. That is one thing I think you might
consider covering - this wodld give the Board some comfort too. The past policy has
been and you Gentlemen have been most gracious - and the Boar d has acted accordingly
to it - they feel compelled to move forthwith at a gallop on many of these petitions.
I realize service and consideration of the public is paramount. But also you can get
jammed up many time with several petitions pending instead of getting them out of
the hopper, one at a time, you get bogged down until you hit one, then the other, etc.
These are my observations on the sideline. The next observation time wise, we have
a possible flaw in our Code, due to the lack of a quorum, they get bogged down -- they
can *t get a majority sometimes to do anything. It can happen. The County code sets
a time element, whereby they consider it, to get it out of the hopper, either vote
aye or nay recommend they do not grant the petition. You have these matters hanging
limbo. Where our Code is drawn now the Council does not have power to reach down
as such unless you want to use adhering power to pull it up to your level to seriously
consider it to dispose of it aye or nay. It is a possibility of this pappening as your
planning and zoning petitions grow, and they will grown.as your City grown. Those
are two observations. I had occasion to attend several of the meetings six months
ago - their attitudes and position in the matter as an advisory board except for
conditional uses etc. - hour one covers that I do not know, but I do think these two
- ®2 y-
time elements should bear serious consideration. As far as filing petitions I spoke
to Mr. Arnold last week and we were exploring the petition they lad before them.
W The petitioning Attorney wanted it zoned for a church, period, didn't specify what
zoning. Also the question if he had sufficient material in the petition. we have
no exact petition form. Some Cities do have such a form. You fill in theblanks.
Also an instruction sheet which goes out to everybody. The City Clerk's office
appraises people - I get calls from Attorneys - do you have a petition form.
I tell them the petition can be in the form of a letter as long as you state as an
Attorney you represent so and so. Attach a legal description. If it is insufficient
they can request you submit supplementary data.
Wiley - may I interrupt. The Zoning Board of Appeals and the Planning and Zoning
Commission, both have adopted procedures and the criteria in what they would like
to have in the petition, some legal requisites, some are things that can't be
legally required of the petitioner. The Clerks office forgets that that arrangement
is there. This mas one of the purposes in putting that material.-- it is not
readily available. One of the things we should do is put together a little packet
to sil —raze for the people who are asking - a check list - We put ourselves in the
position of helping the person off the street who doesn't have the slightest idea
of what he has to go through. The Zoning Board of Appeals has twice as many
requirements as the Planning and Zoning Commission.
Brant - Attorneys also raise the question what are your procedures. You might consider
a form petition. Your amount of petitions aren't that great.
Wiley - Let me give you a copy of the current procedures established by the Boards
and that together with what John is bringing up here - putting together not
necessarily the whole thing but comments on it and specifically the two sections
you are talking about. Bring it back and adopt it by Resolution.
Kiedis - I think something else that ought to be in there is the Council has had two
~,requests :toi� the Planning and Zoning Co-4ssion from the Council and how much are
we tied to their willingness to act. Parking regulations and M -1 zoning. It we can
make a request of them that they give us an answer in 30 days and if they do not
give a recommendation what is the Council empowered to do.
Brant - At the present time the way our Code is geared, you'd be the Council making
the finding of facts, saying they had power to bring it before the Council-
in other words to properly conduct the affairs of the City - and that sometimes puts
in you tenuous ground for you are certifying your own facts situation. To me it
becomes as much political as it is legal as to what point you shut your Board off -
DeLonga - Let me say something - we have been looking at an ordinance for over 2
years. Those boys are busy on it. How we can require them to come back to us
within 30 days knowing what the work schedule they have established themselves is
beyond me and I certainly won't go along with it.
Brant - No I didn't set any days.
DeLonga - I know that - we are talking like days and months.
Martino - I want to say something in answer to one of Bill's observations and a
point that I want to make tonight a goes hand in hand with what John was just trying
t o say. I feel that right now we are on the brink of a major growth period for this
'-ity - all of our Boards, all of our City Council, are going to be very, very busy
individuals and we have to now adopt a policy in eliminate individual
attitudes and follow general procedures - some of which are already outlined.
I for one do not want to see the Council force any Board to take any action on
anything that is pending at the expense of their agenda and their time for the sake
of an individual case and I think in some instances we the Council have done that.
I think lvc have to try to sort these things out and I think it is an excellent idea
to turn some of this stuff over to Bill and come up with some specific gmidelines
that will be general and that will accomplish the things that we are after. But
I have to concur with Jim that I don't see how we can force time tables on people
seeing that this is a part time job and their agendas have been very heavy.for the
last 6 months.
Kiedis - The only point I am trying to A-ke is that we as a Council go along with
Bill's recommendation on M -1 zoning to accomplish the thing within a given time.
And in order to do that we have to get the opinion of the Planning and Zoning
Commission. This is the thing I am concerned about.
-1-11 (_ —
DeLonga - I took Bill's advice as one for the council to show diligence. and nothing
more than that.
Martino -We have talked about it every week since.. and I think we are going to
continue to do that and as we stated last week we are going to assemble our facts
and then go back to the Board with it. And let them digest what we have and come
back to us with some type of recommendation.
Brant - May I make a c —ent - When I said an outside time - it is not a reflection
on that particular board. but boards in general. When you gentlemen have the final
power but if you dont meet the procedure requirement - suppose you get bogged down..
I am pointing out for a general provision in the Code - this day may come - where you
are completely bogged down - three months goes by - four or five months and the
Board - I am not referring to your present Board - generalities - *ou then have to
assert yourselves - you give reasonable attitude or reasonable time - I do feel you
should have a cut off time so that you gentlemen are faced with the problem as
policy makers for the City. To have it in the books if you should ever have
to use it.
Kiedis - The thing I am concerned about is that granted our annexations and rezonings
actually are heavy - there haven't been too many - there is a lot of room for a
tremendous amount of annexation and rezoning requests in the near future - which makes
me thing that we should have guidelines set up. There should be some guide line
where the Planning and Zoning Co— ission at least tyys to abide by the time table
and it is easy to say you are trying but the time keeps slipping away and somebody
ds dissatisfied and the time itself is something that I think we should have in there
regardless of what it is. There should be some definitive way that you can set up
a limit as to how long a Board can abstain from acting on a given subject.
Brant - That was my comment - then in the 30 days or 15 days prior to the next
meeting as far as petitions, is for their protection.
,-,Martino - I have a couple of things that I would like to bring up - I would like to
t alk about our own agenda and our adherence to it. times we allow for discussions
on subjects that are not pertinent to the agenda - such as the one we had for 45
minutes last week on parking regulations - I did not come to that meeting prepared
_)- 7 _
to talk about parking regulations and I felt lost, I felt that the 45 minutes we
spent on that was wasted - in my opinion. I feel that if Walter is going to give
a report on the Planning and Zoning Board meetings that is exactly what it should
be, a report - the questions if we have any should be kept down to a minimum and we
should dispense with the report - whether I am giving it or any one of us - we spend
entirely too much time on that. Then there have been nights where we have had things
scheduled such as the Sign Ordinance where we have held it to five minutes. We have
set an agenda - I think we ought to hold ourselves to it. Otherwise we are not going
to acltomplish a darn thing.
Kiedis: Brevity is the secret -
Martino •• I try to shut you guys up but you all get going.
Kiedis - If we could all reduce the amount of talking we do
Wiley - I think there is more important point there and that is not the amount of
time we spend but if we are really doing justice to the issue and particularily in
this case here .. Mr. Breder called me up Friday after he had read the newspaper
`-'account and Mr. Gibson is very, very upset because of what appeared in the paper
was only a small portion of the conversation and unfortunately it didn't show the
whole issue and never does . We told Mr. Gibson to come over and read a transcript
of the meeting. The point being perhaps we shouldn't even have the report and maybe
we should clarify in what the Council representative to the Board should do. When
we correspond to them should do it in writing and we should do it through the Board
representative and he should be there to andwer any questions and when he is all
done with that he gets out. when the Boards want to a communicate
with the Council they do it the other way around, they send it to us in writing and
they send a representative to convey the message - the Boards representative
responsibility to report actively to the Council what they want. Maybe this is an
area we have gotten too involved.
Kiedis - You don't feel that the Board representative should report to the Council.
Wiley - Perhaps not - I don't take it as my responsibility as the Planning and Zoning
Board representative to correspond with the Council - they established this policy
-e2s- -
thaet when they make a motion they write a memorandum and the Chairman goes over that
memorandum and he has read the test of it and has delivered to us. That is the right
way. The minutes are available. If there are questions about it, you guys can ask
me as the representative . Beyond that we are getting beyond what we should
be doing in getting involved.
Kiedis - I don't think the minutes should be the thing that reflects it - I think
it should be a written memorandum.from the Planning and Zoning Commission to the
Council.
Wiley - I said that.
DeLonga - From the comments I have heard, I think there is entirely too much Council
participation at the meetings of the various boards and the people don't like it.
I don't think it is out of place to go to these meetings and participate - I think
we should limit our comments - what I do at the Fire Department meetings - Toni
Boniello, President gives me about 5 minutes after they take the roll. I ask the -
firemen if they have anything they would like to have me report hack to the Council
_,on, if they have requests I refer them to the Chief or through George, any it—a
they would like follow up or any questions they have - I report to them any action
the Council has taken, just to supplement the minutes.on any request they have had
at the Council meetings. It takes about 15 minutes and that is all I stay for.
It doesn't tie you up the whole meeting and lets them know you are interested in
their activities and if they have a problem they can come to you. We go to the
Board meetings and if they have something they should send a representative to the
Council meeting. This applies to the Fire and Police Depts. or any other boards.
This communication works in two directions. I think as far as Council participation
at these meetings in concerned, I think we should be extremely limited.
McMahon - Mr. Gibson called me today - after I talked to him yesterday I relayed
what Council had discussed last Thursday evening . He said he had been taking to
Chuck Brdder and he advised I work with you - what am I supposed to do. I said to
` the best of my knowledge do what I requested you to do yesterday and that is to
request formally to be heard on the agenda and be heard with your problem. Make a
formal request to Council. He said fine I intend to be there Thursday night, but is
may_
there something you can do that would change the parking requirement. I said absolutely
not. This is a Council decision. I said I can understand your frustration inasmuch
as you want to move your project but nothing can be done until the parking requirements
can be changed unless you want to file for a different type of building permit. That
is the way I left it with him. He said he had been advised by Mr. Breder to work with
me. D
DeLonga - I think you did the right thing you gave him time on the agenda.
Wiley - I think what Michael's point was that generally speaking he should allot
10 or 15 minutes somewhere on the agenda but I kind of extended the Planning and
Zoning - end of tape. we should arrange the agenda - we used to have a
different format and we used to have all the talking stuff first and by the time we
got to the Ordinances we were too tired.
Martino - 'There is nothing wrong with the format. It is just a matter of us making
our mind up that we are going to stick to it.
Kiedis - I think items by the Council, if there are a lot of them and we start getting
._.into discussion - it takes up a lot of time.
DeLonga - I will tell you one thing - I would like to see the Ordinances and
Resolutions that we have to pass get done. Get the order of business out of the way
first, then discuss these things later on.
Wiley - Maybe we should rearrange that portion of the agenda and go through the items
by the Manager etc. last.
Kiedis - I think that is a good idea.
Wiley - I think this is one of the prerogatives that the Mayor as chairing the
meeting has to look at terms of scheduling the discussion and watching it and seeing
how long - --
Kiedis The length of the meeting isn't always the number of subjects you have -
Wiley - Here is where I think yourimput to the agenda should be -
Wiley I could tell whether it was going to be a lengthy discussion or not and I would
take items off the agenda and say we are not going to get there and not have the guyscome
compared . Generally speaking I don't want to come prepared to discuss 15 subjects
-36-
I would rather be well prepared on four or five of them and get them out of the way.
Debonga - That same applies to the City Manager - we can nail George to the wall
.. three or five times over and if he doesn't have any idea what we want to talk about
we have been guilty of this in the past. I am talking about non agenda items -
McMahon - why not bring that under it by the City Manager or something of that
nature and I will put that toward the tail end. There are obviously things that come
across your mind while you are sitting there that you want to bring up
DeLonga - when you are forwarned it is easy. I have a check list a mile long
I would drive you up a tree.
Kiedis - Some of the things that you have George if they can be on your written
report they shorten the thing considerably. If there is any discussion on that
particular report then it can be brought up.
McMahon - The only things that I have put on the agenda that were nonlisted items
ahead of time were either items that have come up between the time of my report and
Thursday evening or something that is of an emergency nature that came across my
desk that needed action on it. I try to be very brief when I do bring it up.
Martin o - I think between George and between the Mayor I think perhaps we can
improve the agenda and the discussion on it. Cut me off anytime you want.
I have one other item - in regards to the memorandum that was in your file. Is this
the extent of the report.
McMahon - That is right.
Martino _ The only other question I have in lets say,if for instance that other
incidents have taken place .. do you have knowledge of these.
McMahon - I have knowledge of some of them and I have indications there were others.
and this goes back to long before I was City Manager and it doesn't apply to the
individual I was talking about. I am referring to people in general. There has been
very loose procedure in that area and I am sure all of you are aware of it or heard
3f it from time to time. I myself have observed unauthorized cars in the City
Public Works Department yard. To me this is not right. Because it is an invitation
to have work done there. why I was trying to do with that directive was make it
_3/-
clear to anyone and everyone that this is not permitted.
Martino - Do you think that the other incident that you have knowledge of that
perhaps I don't, are worthy of making a more extensive report.to me.
McMahon - Not at this time. I think this directive will stop any of this and I
will be paying close attention to the situation.
Martino - I think as far as this particular incident is concerned, perhaps we might
have rectified the situation a little bit earlier. Where this won't happen again
DeLonga - I have something to say about this. I want to give it a little more
thought about this whole situation so as far as I am concerned the matter isn't closed.
I want to talk more about it sometime.
Wiley - What bothers me is thisis the second directive.like this and we wrote the
first directive as a matter of an incident that was far more serious than this one
and it seemed like the message didn't get through.
Kiedis - What do you have reference to.
- 06Longa I wrote the directivd in March - the situation that happened was when the
City Manager was leaving. To me I was extremely concerned about it. It was brought
to my attention. I discussed the matter with the City Attorney and asked for counsel.
It involved a piece of City equipment that was taken out of the City and was used
and returned in a damaged condition. And because it didn't happen during the time
I was acting City Manager, I didn't feel at the time we had sufficient knowledge of
the fact, I felt the time wasn't just right to handle the thing and I would have
expected with the publication of my memo of Narch,I think all of you received a copy,
I sent it to each member of the Council, and we wouldn't be faced with this situation
again.
Kiedis - Do you know the history of this entire thing - did you delve into it.
Do you know that we had a reciprocal agreement with the Public Works Department relating
to the machinery that was used at the golf course. When they were building Plant Drive
mowing
- _Aonard had to have era machines, had to have fertilizer spreaders, had to have
fertilizer. He had an agreement prior to that with the PGA, where the PGA offered
them the use of stuff and we agreed in the event they had any problem s they could use
- 3a -
theres. So Leonard and I had the same kind of agreement. And the first eight months
it was all one way. They used our mower 8 to 10 times, they used the fertilizer
spreader about every 10 days, they were loaned fertilizer, they were loaned
chemicals etc. and the first time that it went the other way was the time I was over
here and they loaned me there mower. Incidently you are talking about damaged condition
while they used my mower over here when they were using it on plant Drive they also
damaged my mower. of which I supplied the parts and I had it repaired. So then you
are talking about the time they used the other mower and something broke on that
but it was a defective part and it was fixed. It was a reciprocal deal and it was
agreed upon. Had it been prohibitive at that time, remember when I asked you later
on about the use of another piece, and you said you had better not, and it was not
used.
DeLonga - There is no, was no reciprocal agreement isetween this City and any private
concern - either at the time I was Mayor or acting City Manager or while I was on
the Council. In fact it is illegal.
Kiedis - It may be illegal but it was being done when the PGA and it was done with me.
DeLonga - If it was being done with the PGA and with you or anybody else was doing
it illegially.
Kiedis - Did the "ity object at the time that they were using my equipment.
DeLonga - Let me be honest with you - I can't recall asking you for the use of your
equipment.
Kiedis - They certainly did.
DeLonga - I recall you offering your equipment.
Kiedis - Offering because after they had asked for it
DeLonga � I have no knowledge of that
Kiedis - You have no knowledge - perhaps not. Bob Carlson was still here at the time.
DeLonga - I can't speak for Bob Carlson. All I can say is that it shouldn't have
.,_,appeased, we can ask our A ;torney his advice on this
Attorney Brant - The only comment I would make Gentlemen forgetting who is involved
or not involved - a reciprocal agreement unless it is layed out in great detail you
--33-
always have this fringe problem back and forth. Unless it can be documented, in other
words, the City borrows a mower from X Corp. and uses it for 15 months, then X Corp.
borrows a piece of equipment from the City but nothing is layed out in writing, use
value whatever you want to call it, you are constantly on the border line, and the
better practice from the legal aspect is to stay away from reciprocity.
to plant
Kiedis - what do you do in a case like last year when they had /Plant Drive and had
to borrow equipment from the PGA - how do you get the grass planted.
Brant - The only comment I can make is the City is a municipal corp. first of all
they should go out to a leasing firm and lease it unless you lay it out ahead of time
by prearranged agreement - for this job you estimate so many hours on the equipment -
and there is no prestablished reciprocity where the City may need specialized mower
machine rt gquivalent in hours in dollar value layed out ahead of time at the time
the deal is cut. The other way around would be to establish a value, lesser than
current rental value, from some outfit who would rent it to you, where the City would
pay if we didn't recei*e the benefit of equipment.
'Kiedis - The trouble with equipment like PGA loaned us last year is that there are no
rentals on the thing like that. So how do you go about planting your grass in a case
like that.
Brant - There should be some dollar value established if reciprocity cant be built in
the beginning. Any City official faces this problem - this is beyond the legal scope.
The minute that anything looks like smoke, everybody presumes there may be fire,
whether it be the case or not. You are constantly on that border line or fringe area
but unless you lay it out in great detail in advance you are in trouble legally.
Kiedis - It is rather difficult to lay it out in great detail because at one time it
is a continuous thing in one direction and you can estimate time that would be
repaying.
Brant - or establish a dollar value. So much per operation hour . I understand the
roblem .
Kiedis - It is a difficult thing and it was done initially to facilitate the building
of the Plant Drive field.
3 �Z
Martino - Let me interject something here. I don't know what has been transpiring
here but I want to speak as one fifth of this Council. Unless a concern is willing
to donate, which I believe is a legal way of doing its I don't want to borrow
anybody's machinery. I was under the impression,at that time `.I was a private
citizen, that the machinery and whatever else we got from the PGA was being donated
to the City in order to accomplish the job.
Kiedis - However it did go the other way. Leonard told me he had offered to them
that if
DeLonga - Leonard has nothing to do with this. The City Manager is the one responsible
for this.
Wiley - Let me tell you how this thing came up. I was Mayor,before Bob Carlson left„
he said something has come to my attention which I ought to tell you about. I didn't
know about it - Leonard told me about it. If I had known about it I would have
stopped it. and it was this incident. I didn't know what to do - I sat on it for
a week or two - I talked to Bill and Jim, who was acting City Manag erg I didn't want
to create a rukus, I wanted to maintain to the City, so Bill's advice to the whole
situation was the result of Jim's memo. The point being the City Manager did not
know about it- there was no arrangement aside whatever the Director of Public Works
had done and the Director of Public Works should not do it again. The Director
of Public Works does this quite often, and he has to learn the Manager is the one
that takes care of bringing considerations like that before the Council and that is
the only place that those things can be discussed as far as I an concerned.
Kiedis - Are reciprocal between Municipalities on something like that permitted.
Brant - providing it is spelled out right.
DeLonga - The only agreement we have is for fire protection.
Kiedis - How .:an we go to Riviera Beach and help them out last week.
DeLonga - Theorethically we shouldn't without Council approval. You can't do this
,,,sort of thing.
Wiley - We borrowed one of these from North Palm Beach and low and behold I go
down to Public Works yard and here is this blue monster and it is busted and we are
putting a new motor on it. And it never got before the Council and Leonard had
wheeled and dealed again.
Martino - To get back to the case in point - why these two things by these two
City Managers - one was Jim and one was George - this one is awful dumb. I give you
John, more credit and intelligence than what I read here.
Kiedis - Mike the guy changed a spark plug. I am assuming that you probably have come
in this building and asked somebody for some help in preparing a letter that you want
to write or something like that or a Policeman - you stop a Policeman and you say I
have a problem - what is he going to do to you say - or if he offers to help you
what do you do - chase him out. I didn't attach any significance to that
Martino - I know you didn't but that is the point I am driving at - you should have.
DeLonga - That is why you should be thinking of things before the fac *.
Kiedis - If we go to that point then lets go back a little further - you want to
criticize John _ Walter let me ask you this - last summer when you put in your
swimming pool on a day when there was no trash pick up in your area, the truck came
'from your house with a big stump on it and some other things _ now how did that happen.
Wileyr _ a stump and an old shack that I built - I put it out on the street and called
Leonard and said, Leonard I want to tell you I have a big load over here - I have
done this how many times - and a lot of citizens have done it - to call Leonard and
Leonard has told me this _ when you have something that is little unusual I call him
up and tell him it is there and if he has an extra run he comes around. I have never
called Leonard and said hey would you came and pick it up.
Kiedis _ That is the same thing with me.
Wiley - No it is not - putting trash out on the street for the City trash truck to
pick up is a common every day occurance. Stopping a Policeman and asking for
assistance is a common every day occurance. Coming in and asking a Secretary to compose
a letter - I don't know who has done that.
Kiedis - We will go back to the trash.
Wiley _ It is apoint of - have you asked for something here that lets say in my case,
did I use my influence over the Director to get a special consideration. Perhaps he
-36
might have taken it that way but the tree sat out there for two or three days before
they picked it up, maybe I got better service, I know I got the same service that
everybody else in Town might have gotten.
Kiedis - I rather doubt it because I asked about a situation like that and he said
it was very disruptive of his schedule.
Wiley - I thought I was advising him that I have something out there in small hunks
that they could pick up. Here it is a case of coming over here during the working
hours and said hey do something here that is a little different and provide something
that is not mine. I don't put much importance on what happened so much as the
philosophy of it that bothers me.
Kiedis - The same as I would put it on your philosophy - granted when you called
Leonard as Mayor he is going to react and you are using your position to have a
job performed the same way. It was City manpower used on a day when they normally
would not be over in that direction. Mike says that is duroh, I will agree with him
it was dumb. I really am not a stupid person.
Martino - Let's say it this way, you left yourself open and subject to criticism.
Kiedis - perhaps - In each case there were circumstances - it was merely a request
for an opinion to start with and the rest followed through. Matter of brevity
and at the time didn't seem to mean anything. I can see where you might think it
does and it is a good thing that everybody think about things like this in the same
fashion.
DeLonga - I think one thing - this sort of thing shouldn't Happen any more. I think
we pass the word around to people on what is going on and how we expect things to
operate and things that you do and don't do, special considerations - really there
shouldn't be any direct benefits on serving on the Council or working with the City.
Certainly if you are in business, there is indirect benefits - people get to know
you and if you were running for other public office you have the advantage of pour
.—�ame being known things of this nature. Really working for the City - there really
should be no direct benefits to anybody.
Kiedis . Actually I am not looking for a benefit -
37-
De anga - Perhaps that is a misnomer
Kiedis - The other deal was what I considered a reciprocal agreement and I can see
where the legality of it and Bill tells me here - it is something that should not
be done - but as the case was it happened to go in the other direction for awhile
and so it just seemed normal that it would be that reciprocation. Had it been
refused there would have been no ..... just like when you told me about the other
deal - I didn't feel anything about it at all.
Martino - I have two more things that I want - one is an announcement - I make it
here because I want to follow up - Effective the 31st I resigned from Pratt Whitney
to accept another position elsewhere in the area. Awhile back we were called to
a meeting and it was suggested that the three members that worked at Pratt Whitney...
DeLonga - Let me .. for a minute - I want to dwell on this myself. Some of us still
work out there and anything that is said I don't want anybodys job jeopardized out
there.
Martino - We had a meeting and we were severly criticized at that meeting - the
three particular councilmen that worked out at Pratt Whitney - that perhaps we got
itogether and tried to manipulate the Council - and I have a vague idea of how these
rumors started and it is quite evident when we took the vote to reorganize that ...
I never forget the discussion and I resent it very deeply - I consider myself to be
an individual, I consider myself to be hardheaded and I consider myself mature enough
to make up my own mind on any matters that might come before me. It leaves a bad
feeling with me and I want the individuals involved to know that and I want to go
one step further - I think that all five of us, I want to include Gordon, however
minimal this office may be, we are still representing people and that is what this
country is based on and I think we owe it to the people of this City to have the
best type of Council that we can and one that can get the most work done for the
benefit of the people. I feel this way and if the organization that we have now
is not compatible then we owe it to the citizens to make a change. If we feel
that once we get out of here tonight that this is a compatible arrangement, then
we should get back an our stools and get to work.
-3,-f-
Kiedis - I was under the impression that we often say- we have all said it one time
or another, that we may have arguments within the Council but after the issue is
-'resolved that one is past and we will attack the next problem without any reservations
or recourse. If this is what you are talking about.
Martino - The only thing that Y keep in the back of my mind is when my integrity
is bhallsq$ed.And one particular incident that I brought up I felt that my personal
integrity was challenged. I want the rest of you Gentlemen to know that is how I felt.
Kiedis - Did you challenge the one that makes the Statement. You are inferring that
since two of us do not work in Pratt Whitney that .. There is an innuendo that
because somebody made a statement to you three, you feel that it is done by someone
other than the one that made the statement of his own ..
DeLoaga - I don't know - I agree with the statement you started to make relative to
we have our disagreements on the Council and we leave the Council chambers the
disagreement should be dissolved.. the word has been getting back to me again by
some reliable sources that Pratt Whitney block is taking action prior to the Council
meetings on certain subjects that we have been handling and I also resent these
comments and I don't know quite what we can do about it. Sticks and stones don't
break your bones but I think in this particular case it is grossly unfair because I
have worked out there for 18 years - and I an sort of proud of the product we
produce and the people I work with out there and I an very happy to b. employed by
Pratt Whitney- I don't like to hear these comments going around the Community.
Kiedis - You make one mistake - you listen to people without facts and you form
opinions - you have done this before - I do not like the inference that somebody on
the Council is making these statements - you have 8,000 people in this Community
so don't infer that it is the Council who do not work at Pratt Whitney that make these
statements.
DeLonga - All I can say to anybody - if the shoe fits let them wear them.
�iedis - I don't think you should be concerned about your fellow Councilman. I think
they are here for the benefit of the Community and they try to do the best job in the
world.
_3y-
Kiedis - This is whir I am on the Council and I make no effort to down grade anybody.
There is no point to it. In case you don ►t like who you are working with you
can always leave.
Wiley - Let me clarify one thing. Bill made reference to it earlier. I look around
and see a bunch of engineers here. Mike is not an engineer - the point being there
are 6,000 people at Pratt Whitney possibly 1200 are engineers, the rest of them
are a cross section of this Cc"munity as you *ill find anywhere else. Secretaries,
college kids - sons and daughters - they have the whole show. It is unfaif'to the
Community, unfair to the RCA people when they were on here, that they were
sterieatyped also. I personally found I had to change my ways when I was Mayor
and that was when I was speaking on behalf of the City or on behalf of the Council
as opposed to speaking my own views. It is a difficult situation to sit in the
Chairmans position as a moderator and not be able to say your own views. This is
the position that the Mayor finds himself in and when the vote is taken it is
obvious, when the debate is going on, that you have five people talk as individuals
when it is all done, and we are dealing with the public or dealing with the press,
if it is a Councilman talking as Councilman himself says, but if it is the Mayor
talking, the City said this. The Mayor has got to be very careful that the words
are indeed the consensus and view point of the Council. I think this aspect has
gotten back to us on a couple of occasions, particularly the PGA dam occasion, where
you were quite obviously opposed to the decision that the three councilmAn made
and the word got back to me that you were not speaking from the consensus of the
Council and this cannot happen.
Kiedis _ Oh yes it can. I am privileged to make an opinion on that as you are.
W iley - I sa #d you have to diferentiate whether you are speaking for you as a
Councilman or you as the Mayor. When you express your views as an individual, you
express them strictly as an individual and you have to make it very clear to the
person you are talking to that you speak as an individual and not as the Mayor.
The whole point being, and I think this is what Michael was getting at, was that
if you can't speak , on a large majority of issues:, if you don *t speak by an large
the majority of the Council, perhaps the majority of the Council should reassess
its spokeman.
Kiedis - Bill, an opinion
Brant - I will speak legally - not policy wise. The Mayor has the pnorogitive to
speak as an individ ual Councilman, but the Mayor generalizes, in other words,
expressing the view of the Council. You have the same privilege as any other
Councilman to speak your own opinions, outside of the meeting. The moderator normally
refrains from the fray to keep order, first of all, and to get a majority to do
something while he is sitting in the chair. As Mayor, when you generalize, then
are
the consensus of opinion is that you /speaking from making a policy decision for the
group.
KieAis - There are very few times that you will see any of my comments in the
newspaper.
Wiley - I am not worried borried about the newspaper - I am talking about everyday
conversation and particularity the story that I got back about the conversation you
had with Carl McKinney. About the dam - you know what you said to him.
Kiedis - Certainly I know what I said to him.
Wiley - The story I got back was that you were not speaking for the consensus of
the Council.
Kiedis - That is correct - I did not speak for the Council. I spoke as an individual.
Wiley - Whether you qualified those remarks or not - so what. Now we have active
against us - four law suits -
Brant - You have three pending.
Wiley - typically the Mayor will be subpoened to speak and as the Mayor and I feel
looking ahead at a situation like this that should you be subpoened as the Mayor of
the City and answer questions as the Mayor of the City, you are going to be very
diligent and careful, in the comments that you says that you ascertain that they are
what the majority of the Council's vote is, and not what �gmr Qwn personal view is.
,--,Particularily- by the PGA -
Kiedis - Personal opinions would have to be sidelined to the voice of the majority.
That is an opinion of the Council as they vote. That still does not den}.;me from my
personal opinion
Wiley - No, don't misunderstand me. It is one of the more difficult aspects of the
Mayor's job is to be able to determine what the opinion is that you say. It is
going to be sometime a situaaion that you refrain from saying anything, opposed to
getting involved.
Kiedis - You can do this as a personal thing as long as it is stated as such but
the wish of the Council of course, takes over my personal opinion as far as any vote
is concerned. I still have a personal, opinion that I can make and once a decision
is made whether it be three to two or three to one is the deciding thing. Then of
course I go along with the Council. I have done this quite a few times is the
past where I have disagreed but it was obvious there were three people w.. this
could not require a vote prior to this thing - do you follow me. The PGA - you
already had three people who did the job.
Wiley _ I take polling the Council you do generally in an emergency type situation.
Kiedis - Well it is a vote - I agree - you have the power to do it but it still
doesn't stop me from disagreeing with it. In the event we had to defend the suit
I would say it is the consensus of the Council that this be done and that would be
the end of it. But I say on various occasions if I might not agree with three
people, but since there are already three people voting for it, that I would also
say yes because it min? ®4zes the problems of dissention. Last Thursday I actually
did not agree that Nancy Laurie should be made a member of the Planning and Zoning
Committee but with three prior votes, I felt it were better it was a four to zero
vote.
Wiley - what do you mean by three prior votes - we have very few occasions to have
the Council vote by roll call and that is the oily time you have prior vote. We
vote simuittaneously
Kiedis- But there is a motion made, seconded and the other individual voted aye
'— so I voted aye also.
Martino - Don't take that fact - because the benefit of your input into the
discussion might ...
f L --
Kiedis - There is no other way it can go.
,Wiley - I talked to Gordon tonight - he had the same opinion you just expressed.
But none of this came out.
Kiedis _ It was of no use.
DeLonga - Why do you say that - certainly it was.
Kiedis - Because there were already three votes for Nancy Laurie.
DeLonga - How do you know that
Kiedis - Because you voted that way. A motion made, seconded
Wiley - I expressed concern right away that I would much rather prefer to see
Chuck Sanders on the Board rather than Nancy Laurie.
Kiedis - But you didn't say that before you nominated Nancy Laurie. You were the
one who nominated Nancy Laurie.
Wiley - I brought it up at the discussion - that was open
if you had any you should have said so.
Kiedis - When you suggested Sanders ...
Wiley - Maybe another thing we should discuss in terms of how we appoint people to
the Board, why do we go to the Board and let them appoint there own.
Kiedis - This is a question I had about - We asked them for three candidates which
I feel we should be entitled to receive from them but when they gave us one
candidate they as such as said we will accept this candidate and no one else.
I don't think that is right.
Martino - I think we knew that but were looking for compatibility amoung the boards.
Kiedis - You can't look for compatibility - in our case when they give us one
nominee and ane nominee only, you are going to create some more dissention with the
Board. I think in the Code it says the Council shall appoint the members of the
Boards. I think we have given up our right to make a selection by asking these
Boards for their suggestions.
Adm£nstrative Meeting - October 22, 1973 at 8:00 P.M.
DeLonga - on pending suit - asked Attorney Brant to report
Attorney Brant - the writ is returnable at 8:00 this coming
Thursday morning. I went to the court house This afternoon - going forward with
the petitioner presenting the case. Have an 12 reserved Nov. 6th for the City
to bring its rebuttal in. I have a subpeona for rEr. Strum - I consider him a
very material witness - the timing is too tight to get the Sheriff of Broward
County and then to serve it on the State officials. I called him first thing this
morning and have yet to return my call. Subpoena his records. Spent a half hour
with Jay Cooper - the key issue from his aspect at this point is that letter he
wrote in July. Basically his letter where he recommends the City lift the
moratorium - he now has a hybrid opinion. He feels that the 60 or 70,000 gallon
capacity which can and should be used. In fact he went with Mr. Trapnell to meet
Strom turned them down
Mr. Senivich in Orlando trying to get the DPC to see it there way. According
in Ft. Lauderdale
to Mr. Cooper he hasgone over the construction schedule - Trapnell according to
Cooper does not have his final permit as such - one or two technicalities. But
l�
he is supposed to be installing tanks out there now - the same outfit that install(
them in North Palm Beach is doing the work out there. According to Cooper the
minimum time would be to have a completion date in April and wrap it up in July
with the plant here in the City hooked on to the transmission lines. I don't
know whether the man is a dreamer or not but that is what he told me over the
phone.
DeLonga - When you said Cooper went with Trapnell - did they go to Ft. Lauderdale
Mr. Brant - No they went of Ordlando.
DeLonga - ghat was their response up in Orlando.
Mr. Brant- They are still waiting a decision according to Cooper. But they just
keep bucking it up the line. Strom on the local level would not approve it.
Martino - I want to ask you a question - I noticed in the law suit - it was
indicated that the Plant was willing to grant a hook up or a permit or something
to this Chudnow Construction Company. Under what auspicious can they rake a
statement like that.
a Jgr—_'ATant --That is an allegatf , Tts be proved. You can - allege
anything. Vahat Trapnell inay be willing to do - it is a question of whether he
can legally do it or not.
Kiedis - When Cooper aaid he had 60 - 70,000 gallons - what was he basing it on.
Did you see any figures.
Air. Brant - No - this is the way his testimony will go, in my opinion. Single
family house so many gallons per day, apartment house - in other words this
is what he is projecting against in the 60- 70,000 gallons. fie started off with
zero then he got up to 30 connections, single family residences - I truthfully
a.
don't know what is in the wind, as far as his thinking.
Kiedis - The only thing, all of the figures we have seen have Seen in the
upwards of 700,000 gallons so when the maximum was 770,000 how can he project
70,000 gallons with the construction that is still continuing at Tanglewood
and the Longwood.
Mr. Brant - I think he leaning more like Ralph Baker _ in other words, if you
are in the ball park 10,000 - 40,000 gallons - in other words there is a spill
o ver. He tends to be reasonably flexible from the time I started discussing
it with him some time ago. Mr. Lukin is very imfatic - he used a number and
that was it.
Mr, McMahon - A s I understand, it isn't so much the total amount of gallonage
as proficiency increeding it and when I talked to Jim from the Flood Control
he indicated that they could achieve a much higher degree of efficiency in
treating the effulent, than they are now able to do. And the total gallonage
by itself is not the end criteria.
Mr. Brant - That is true - but then not this conversation but one I had before
with Mr. Cooper - he takes the position as DPC giveth and taketh away. In order
to get the proficiency the DPC wants they have to install an additional piece
of equipment in the existing plant. They kne,, :tkm mr. Mac would not spend
around ?80,000 because he had made so many public statements you don't put a
new engine in an old cord etc. So they were willing to make concessions
p roviding he did such and such and according to Cooper they knew he wasn't going
to do it. Cooper then takes the more liberal attitude.
Martino - Is Mr. Cooper going to retract his original
Mr. Brant _ No not 100o . He is coming in with this hybrid theory as of this
morning. When Myers talked to him 10 days ago, Myers thought he was going to
d ocument his letter with great gusto - I got Mr. Cooper on the phone this
morning and without any solicition (I don't believe in that - it can backfire)
he is on the hybrid theory now. No he would not recommend at this point that
the City pointblank lift the moratorium. He feels there is gallonage there
that can be used and should be used and the City should lift it to that extent.
First come, first serve basis.
DeLonga - there is Lukin right now.
Mr. Brant - The last time I saw Larry I saw him in Ft. Lauderdale when Mr. McMahon
and I were clown there at a conference.
DeLonga - In his new job down there?
Mr. Brant - Yes.
DeLonga - would it do any good to subpoena him on this.
Mr. Brant - I would say we could but his facts would be too stale. Whether he
would buck Jay or not. I do have possibly one ace card - and that is Mr. Cooper's
3.
George
assistance while he was out of Town -xMxxxMmbO&wR had several conversations with
him. And his theory - with a spill over of this day and a half I think I can
hold my subpoena - lay back and get the testimony - the advantages of it
and disadvantages of it - I want to kick it around with XxxxXRb4" %n George.
He is Mr. Cooper's assistance and if his job is in jeopardy his memory may fade.
Aa I understand it he was point blank with Mr. McMahon, possitively no hook -ups
until this plant was well under way.
Mr. r;c^lahon - And I wrote him a letter last week reiterating what he had told
me and asking him to v;rite me back in regards to it. I haven't received any
response.
Martino -
Rak+RcSa - [,,,hen you go into Court - It is a fact that that Plant was designed
with 7: amount of capacity. And it is a fact that Plant is over that X factor.
And it is also a fact that based on that treatment, as far as I am concerned,
it is only so much treatment level that you can maintain.
Mr. Brant - No, here is the argument Mike, we have two points that we have to
�- cover - one is hydraulic capacity in itself is not the issue. In other words,
that plant could run at possibly a million gallons if they have the treatment
up to the maximum. The treatment is not up to the maximum So then Cooper comes
in with his hybrid theory - suppose the plant is underway - we are dealing with
technical theory - Per. Cooper's projections are -let's use Chudnow as an example -
the eariliest they would bring a building in under normal construction standard
is 6 months for the first unit. The new plant theorically,using Cooper's theory,
should be half finished. That one goes on the line - suppose it has 50 units
times 330 - 15,000 gallons thrown on the line - meanwhile you have demands for
s ingle family residents permits - that is 330 a day - so as far as Cooper is
concerned - even if you got up to 60,000 hooked on to this plant - it would not
constitute a health hazard. Under his theory.
Martino - Once we do that we shut off the hospital treatment plant, Mr.
Pappaiardo's treatment plant, we shut off the Longwood treatment plant.
DeLonga - So someone would have to establish priority. The State Health Department
were the ones that gave us the lOo anyway. It wasn't a local agency. It was
a State Agency.
Mr. Brant - He would repudiate the directives under which we started. tie is
saying there has been a change He won't repudiate Lukin's -- --
Kiedis - How does Stin stand in this chart of command - you aaid he was
t he one Cooper went to see. Is he over Strom.
Brant - yes he is above Strom.
DeLonga - How come Brumback can sit down there and be the boss of the whole office
and not even put his two cents worth in.
Mr. Brant - He doesn't hold r.,n engineering degree. Pith the title and so called
k
experience they are qualified as experts. Dr. Brumback is an MD. So he is
the administrator. Cooper is tasically the expert on the staff.
De Longa - the point I am trying to make is that Cooper is not a health expert.
Kiedis - A health expert would have to make a decision on the waters - the
engineer would be that might say you could handle so many gallons at such and
such a capacity.
Mr. Brant - I couldn't back him off.
Martino - I think we are all interested in the same thing, and that is to
eliminate the moratorium. But we want to do it on sound footing, sound basis.
DeLonga - On top of the sewer moratorium, we have a water problem coming up.
We haven't really determined how critical that is. This is really not just for
our Community but the East coast of Florida.
Mr. Brant - I am talking strategy - they have not met the requirement of the
potable water supply, secondly they don't have the staff of the hotel and
restaurant commission which the health department enforces as far as sanitation.
Ailey - Speaking relative to Ord. 20 - is that on the books as sufficient enough
time that Cooper should have had to furnish that .
Mr. Brant - the only thing we change in that basically except brushing up some
verbage was adding the potable water requirement. But as far as having the
stamp of approval of the Board of Health - they haven't in my opinion filled
all the administrative requirements.
DeLonga - What I am concerned when this folks go apply for a permit from the
Health Department , the Health Department sites the Cities Building Moratorium
rather than the health hazards that they should be basing their decisions on.
We will handle our end of it with reaards to our own ordinances but they are the
Health Department - they should rule on the qualifications of the applications
based on health. Not on the Cities moratorium. Ve have to get them off that
kick.
Mr, Brant - Unfortunately the both are intertwined.
Wiley - Is it possible to get the Health Department to act on an application
without making reference to the Cities moratorium .
is
Mr. Brant - I would say yes. What he is really shifting back to /the choice
facing the Councilxkacxixgxxke at the time the moratorium was imposed. With
a 60- 70s000 capacity . I asked him - you talk about first come, first serve
basis where do you cut it off - He said any time you see a permit - number of
u nits using our book formula - you shut it off at that point.
If
Mr. Miley - You establish when you start this procedure what the current
capacity is then. Which figure do you use. - Feb. figure when it is running 750
Mr. Brant - This is where we get into cross examination, when he is going to have
to do some swimming,
xC %5.
Mr. Wiley - When we show the thing flucuates up and down --
Kiedis
Mr. c*a - do you have all the figures available.to you that you need.
McMahon - Assumably Cooper has.
Kiedis - Will you have it there so you could repute - he could say Aiwaxwx this
and unless he had something to back it up
Mr. Brant - here is what has happened - they have subpoenaed h6m but I am also
putting a subpoena out. For this reason. When the other side subpoenas a witness
they ask very few questions then a cross examination so you underhand what we
are facing procedurglly,it is not a wide open ball game. Myers could bring him in
him only 4
and ask ol-- question if he is Myers witness and I can only ask cross examination
type of questions within the realm of those four questions. That is why I am putting
a subpoena on him also. Just to hold him in reserve as my witness. in that way
the door is open for me to put him on - call him and if he becomes hostile then
tend to impeach him. That is the way I have to play it. Regardless of what the
feelings are.
Wiley - that word I keep hearing that. Attempt to impeach him.
Brant - Yes that word is quite popular these days. It is a saying - I am going to
let them call Mr. Trapnell - cause Fred is going to have the same x*Kdx line,
same contracts, cofifirmations and he is going to sing like a canary. How great he is
how great the old man is and how soon they are going to get the job done. 5o there
is no reason for me to put him under subpoena.
DeLonga - Is there anyway you can site the time element in putting the North Palm
Beach expansion on the line. They told me July
Brant - only indirectly . Because what happened there doesn't mean it is goin g to
happen in your case. Yes I will have to back into it.
DeLonga - As far as credibilitp is concerned in there performance in completing
projects x= we can even go back and site the water treatment plant.
Brant - again I have to back in the door. It is like a man zn4acsx who says I have
been driving a car 50 years and the first accident in my life therefor I shouldn't
V
b e charged. That is the same principle.
Kiedis - Going back to what Jimmy was talking about - water supplies - Do we have
any idea as to what potential they have in these wells or how much water they've got.
Because if this building starts and you start using a lot more water than we are
using now.
DeLonga - Well once upon a time -in the not too distant past - it was indicated to
me that we don *t have enough to have a really gigantic City here.
Kiedis - I was just wondering what our margin is over what we have now.
Wiley It is two fold -just like the sewer treatment - capacity in the ground -
the treatment capability - the plant over there is only taking treating so many
gallons per day.
DeLonga - you have to have the availability of fresh water
6.
McMahon - they can have all the fresh water in the world with out the treatment
capacity it might as well stay in the ground.
Brant - He choked on one statment. He is talking about completion no later than
July of next year and transmissions lines will be hooked etc. I said suppose the
old man gets a feather in the left ear - he says take it and shove it - what are
you going to do about it. He started to say something - his lawyer skm asked me a
question so give me a legal answer - he choked and said I really don't know.
I said the TOP sets it up - it is good until July 1, 1974 until the other plant
is completed and connected. I said suppose it is never connected. Is the DPC
going to keep the City - shut the sewerage down or tk*.*x are they going to try
to crack as best whip as they can and keep going - you can't shut a sewerage plant
d own. He choked on that one.
Wiley - B have yet to see the assurance that says the plant we have now gets shut
down, and it all goes to the new plant.
Brant - When you look at the construction permits for the new plant - they talk
about in access of 7,000 people north of the City limits of Palm Beach Gardens.
Cooper was not aware of Mr. MacArthur's subdivision - the one he just went to court
on.cutting the Intracoastal. He was more aware of Karl Kendell's development.
Kiedis - I think it will be aimed at that too. Because that is supposed to be in
the vacinity of 18- 20,000 people.
Wiley - I will be honest - if I was MacArthur I wouldn't ba: shut this plant down.
why.
DeLonga -Why should he.
Kiedis - I don't think he will.
Brant I don't think he is going to.
Wiley - Where do we sit - taking on an overload - he is building this whole new
never hooks them up
plant and /never connecter, interconnects them.
Brant - This is the whole problem - The City doesn't own the Utilities and the
State Agency sits with a finger in their ear - they talk about it - issue permits
hold meetings - conduct hearings. but they do nothing about it. And he gets away
with murder. The PSC - Jay says you should go to the PSC - I said you have to be
kidding - You heard theximx old saying what some people want they get - and this
has been the batting average here and he is quite aware of it. I can't see him
playing footsie in this deal - I don't see any alignment - he and the powers to be
aren't that friendly. The old man would just as soon take his skin off an inch
at a time as not. $
Wiley - The suit tells us to be there at 8:00 and also at 3:30 - do we have to be
there at either or bath -
Brant - No all I need really - before we put a rebuttal on - and I haven't had time
to develop strategy from the rebuttal part of it. Because of the time element.
7.
I spent most of yesterday working up the technical answer which I have to have
_
filed on him before 8:00 Thursday morning. The time element is tight.
DeLonga - I thought you said that you don't have to present anything until Nov. 6
Brant - No the written answer .
DeLonga - What do you have to do this Thursday.
Brant - Actually going to file hearing. The burden is on the petitioner to make out
a case. So it is scheduled to be in at 8:00 - it is supposed to shut off at 8 :30
as the Judge goes into another hearing - then he will pack it up at 3 :30. The
problem here is he has so many jury trials scheduled in Nov. that this is one of the
only openings . The only other opening *rzxx was for 2 hours on Nov. 2 . Myers
was already committeed to a trail in Swart on Nov. 2.
DeLonga - What do you have to do Thursday.
Brant - Cross examine their witnesses. Develop as much as we can from the witnesses.
Then I would like to hold Cooper under my subpoena and bring him back possibly
- depending on what develops there.
DeLonga - You need our presence.
Brant - no . I need one of you - It is better of one of you to represent the City
- It can be the Mayor or the Manager -
Wiley - Can we take a tape recorder down there.
Brant - I don't recommend it - I will have a court reporter. We will have a
transcript.
Wiley - What I am thinking about - say we don't make it at 8 :00 - just like the
Blair case whanxIkxxx we were there in the z°"gkw.snadm morning and nothing happened
and in the afternoon all hell broke loose. If we had been able to listen back
we would have known what happened.
be
Brant - This particular attack is going to different than the Blair Case. I would
say there is going to be a transcript prepared - whether we win or they win - one
side or the other is going to appeal this one - in my opinion.
DeLonga - in my opinion if the City lost I would definitely want to appeal.
Kiedis - the other one was scheduled that way anyway wasn't it hill - moramgg and
after lunch.
Brant - In the Blair case there was a great sympathy flowing to the individual
for his dream house or his home. In this case it is strictly profit motivated.
The same Judge.
McMahon - Does the Council want me to be at this hearing -
Brant - Either George or the Mayor
DeLonga - George doesn't really know anything about it.
Brant - Nov. 6 I will have to develop stratiggy - which one of you to put on the stand
develop it with you and how to hit it. The other point that we have to outflank
is the finding of fact as to the economic blight to the general appearance to this
8.
City - lomkxx gx banging on doors for hook ups etc. I want to explore that with you.
You Gentlemen can qualify but I would scratch my head all afternoon for an expert
for a half hour. Whether it should be a planner - an architect familiar with this
problem - just a half hour testimony is all I would need. The discussion before
Ord. 14 was passed. I know there is more backgraound material than what we have in
the prey -hle.
Kiedis - You say noone would give any testimony on Thursday. What if they should say
there is so and so we want to ask him some questions - may they do that.
Brant - yes you can always call them as an adverse witness. ,Even without a subpoena
if you are present. They take you as they find you.
Wiley - There is nothing that can be done against any one of us.not obeying the
summons literally to be there.
Brant - No I am filing the answer - in behalf of the City and all of you in your
official capacity. So that satisfies the return on the writ. The way that type of
writ is drawn - for argument sake - suppose you had a change of heart - we will call
a special meeting and give them a dry permit - well then there would be no 9xzikKc
need for the hearing and you wouldn't be in contempt . But that is not the case.
So you go to the next step and file a formal answer and go to hearing on it.
If you have filed your answer they would have to present their case but you wouldn't
have to show to make any defense if you didn't care too. The burden is on them
and if they sustain it you didn't rebut it. The Judge would rule on
the facts.
Wiley - How much of this is going to get back to the events prior to Nov. 1970 and
how much is going to be relative to the current situation.
Brant - Most of it will turn into the current situation in my opinion. But he has
to make the thrust to knock out the ordinance in order to get the dry permit he is
seeking.
Martino - How about the septic tank that he said that he could have.
Brant - I asked Cooper point bank - he said that man must be out of his damn head.
He said he never once contacted a member of my staff.
Martino - He said specifically at a Council meeting 5 - s 23,000 gallons
tanks.
Brant - I remembered it - he said to his knowledge - positively he would not
consider it.
Kiedis - When you think about septic tanks - you require such an extensive - you
require about 450 -500 qq. ft. of drain field for 2 - there wouldn't be any ground
left in the area if they tried to put x number of units on there. They couldn't
possibly do it.
DeLonga - The petitioner did not explore all the alternates.
Martino - That is what I was trying to bring out.
Brant - There is a direct attack on the ordinance as such - we abliged them in July
by going over there plans from the structural aspect and we are lockfd in on that
9.
whether wee like it or not. Your officials are quite courteous . There is no reason
not to really.
Martino - The current situations here in the Gardens dictates a septic tank is
an offered measure in lieu of the moratorium. Why doesn't he use that method
with the Health Dept.
Brant - According to Cooper he says he would never consider a septic tank for units
that size. I hit Cooper point blank with it.
Martino - The other thing is it was also mentioned in lieu of either one there was
4 or 5 different alternatives to Jerry's proposal and one of them was a on -site
plant.
Brant - Mr. Cooper tends to have the same philosphy as a younger version of Ralph
Baker. He would rather take more of his chances with the existing plant in its
current condition than fool around with on -site treatment plants. He doesn't like
them. This is the philosphy you are facing. I made a suggestion - had the
Chudnow group ever asked if they could work a deal with the hospital for example
�. In reply he said that is a mickey mouse affair without adding any more problems
to it. I explored every facit I could think of while I had him on thephone.
DeLonga - If everything is so mickey mouse around here maybe they are not doing
their job down there.
Brant - Maybe you hit the nail on the head. When you change philosphiesfrom day
to day there is something wrong. They were wrong from the beginning or right from
the beginning. Maybe they should change their thinking.
Martino- Can't you knock that case using that kind of philosphy.
Brant - you are reputiating the so called public official that is the guardian of
the publics health.
Martino - No I am not saying Mr. Cooper per se - but I am saying Mr. Sleeter and his
group did not pursue every avenue that was open to them.
Wiley - L know for a fact they didn't pursue there avenue with the City Council.
Brant - No I can't make a federal tact using that approach - I have to work it in.
Martino - The thing I am afraid of -
McMahone - something is amiss down here which I think can be brought out. and
why the difference between the staff and the assistant director. That is why he has
a staff to use them for input for a decision making process. How could he say that
there is room for additional hook- ups and his staff say no.
Brant - The division between the DPC and Mr. Coopers office which he states in his
July letter - let the City and I go hand in hand to the DCP - he is admitting his
on the face of his letter.
McMahon .. Strahm sat right down in his office and told you and I that he would not
recommend any additional hook -ups. So you have the DPC and the staff of the County
both saying the same thing. one man is saying no.
10.
Brant - Cooper is wearing 2 hats - he is the enforcement agency - locally for the DPC
and then environmental control officer.
DeLonga - the overiding agency is the DPC anyway.
Brant - Just one conference with Mr. Strahm he is not going to deviate. He is an old
line type administrator - when he says something that is it. He doesn't speculate
that is what his superiors are for that type so he can make a good witness as long
as you keep him on the path.
Wiley Is there anything else you need from us.
Brant - no
Kiedis - I think if George goes instead of any of us it would probably make it
simpler and Bill brief us *Kxpxx later on.
McMahon - would my being there help at all.
Brant - yes. It shows interest in the case.
Kiedis - When they ask questions of their witnesses and you ask your questions -
you can get the gift of what they are going to ask at a later time.
So it would give us a better preparation as to what we have to do.
Brant - Yes - you anticipate the other sides questions. Then you have anticipated
questions from cross examination. Then quickly you have to assimulate everything
to make sure you don't go beyond the scope of ACS other attorneys direct examination
because objections are made. The more objections &n a hearing of this type is a
sign of weakness. You have a list of what you anticipate asking if he doesn't
d evelope then you scratch him off and you other ones that you put down as the
testimony develops. Then we get into the defense of it I would plan on calling
Strahmi Cargillio - depdnding on how Cooper comes through - how strong he is -
he may become whichy washie -he may shift in the wind completely from what he told
me this morning - I will put Cargillio under subpoena whether we use him or not
at least stir the pot. Mr. Cooper is committed to this philosphy and he is not
` XXXxbd+ca x- going to shake it. He has come off with total lifting of the
moratorium. He truthfully believes this timetable he is talking about because I
went over it twice with him.
DeLonga - I didn't see any tanks being put in the ground
Brant - I am just repeating -
McMahon - This is the difficult thing to understand or accept on the City's part
that the County health agency or a representative of the State - they have been very
remiss in that they haven't provided the City *ith adequate data. if it was their
intention that there was something that could help us one way or the other I would
think that they would try to work with use rather than keep everything a mystery or
in the dark.
Brant - well even let's talk about the construction schedule - Trapnell and he
apparently working very close - they have gone to Orlando together to make a pitch .
11.
According to Cooper he has seen confirmation of orders of equipment - who has been
retained to do what etc.
McMahon - And we have not.
Brant - that is what I am saying - So he can shift his policy of thinking with
he reportedly has in his hand and nobody is else is aware of.
Kiedis - it is easy to make a schedule but it is another thing to keep it.
You can say anykhing - like this July completion date or ready to hook up but that
doesn't necessarily mean that everything that happened before is going to be on
schedule and the thing will be done at that time.
Brant - I apm* pointed out to him - it is not just completing the plant - you have
to have the transmission lines connected - I did develop with him - I think he was
being as candid with me as he could - there is going to have to be a pumping station
in between.which is not under way. I said what about right -of -way - he wasn't sure.
That is another factor he had_-to consider.
McMahon - This letter that was sent to the City by Cooper was not in it self
a document per se - it was a mans opinion but there was m=# no philosophy or
background for this type of thing. Anyway it did not in any way help the City
arrive at any different determination.
Brant - Strictly conjecture. which you or I ar anyone based on contract documents
could speculate.when this plant might be finished.
Kiedis - George you still don't get any monthly reports
McMahon - I have never received one. The only data was verbal over the telephone
and that is after calling twice. I have written them with no response.
Brant - He encroached Traphnell quite a bit. I say Jay I have known Fred I long time
since about 1957 and he is a very good man. Fred when he gets to blowing his own
horn there is a whole orchestra. That is about what it sizes up to.
Basically that is what we are working against and we will conclude the City's case
on the 6th of November.
Kiedis - I have known Fred for about 10 years a4so
Wiley - the way I feel I am going to plan on going down there 8:00 Thursday morning
I don't propose to represent the council - I an going to plan on taking time off
and then gauge it to the 3 :30 thing.
I feel this way because I have been down in Judge MacMillan's court room before
on two occasions in behalf of the City and seen what happens down there and no matter
what you plan ahead it -- --turn around too fast.
Mr. Brant - you are right - you will see me shift ground fast. I have to. I know
what is coming - I have appeared before Judge MacMillan many times.
Wiley - From that standpoint besides being one of the two councilmen still on the
Council now that signed Ord. 14 - I have a rkther thick file - I spent about four
hours Saturday and went through my entire file - I did not go too much indepth
the things leading up to the moratorium but I have about an inch worth of that
12 .
correspondence etc. that i have and the Tanglewood situation . I have all the
documents leading to that. SX99
Brant - I don't think it will get warm until about 3 :30 - Judge MacMillan is coming
in from his Judge's - - -- Wednesday afternnon or night and then to hit the bench at
8:00 in the morning - he is going to have to look at the file - what is it all
about- warm up - pre trial conference _ how many witnesses do you have - what is the
anticipated time - what are the issues - is there any settlement in this thing
go on from there.
DeLonga - doesn't he try to educate himself about the circumstances surrounding the
case in this magitude. I am talking about a whole municipality - 8000 people.
Doesn't he feel it is his responsibility to familiarize himself with the facts
surrounding the case.
Brant - Oh yes - he will before any final judgement is made. He is probably one of
the most conscientious type of Judge there. He weighs too long and too hard sometime.
or
Keidis - Is Brumback one of the health officials going to be Yk" - -_
Brant - I don't know who will be the first witness - the Building Official might be
the first one out of the box. He is under subpoena.for the other side.
Kiedis - It seems to me the judge would want to know what the facts are relating to
the sewer plant and what the health officials feel about the condition of the water.
Brant - This is where the testmony -
DeLonga - One other thing you've got to remember - Hanson is the Building Inspector
George is the building official..
Brant -If objected to title then they would change it - amend orally
be permitted to do. If iit is ndt a major amendment you can amend by
the Judge will take his pen
Martino - Why would they need Jack more so in lesser capacity that each one of us.
McMahon - Jack would be the person who reviewed his building permit _ and they want
to know if a qualified building permit was filed with the City.
Brant - The main reason is he was quite upset when he called me Friday and I told
him not to worry about _ IF you read his memorandum - he goes right across the
board .. he doesn't say that theylmeet just the building code - he says they meet
all the code of ordinances in the City - he was too loose. So he has to go in and
repudiate part of that because that is not the truth. I told him not to get upset
about it _ if he took his letter there would be no need to hold a hearing.
Martino _ Why was that letter ne *essary
DeLonga ..yes, why was it. Whitt did he give the letter for.
Martin o _ let us make sure we don't make any more mistakes like that one.
McMahon _ I wasn't even aware of it.
DeLonga
- No requirement for a letter like that to be written.
Kiedis - When you ask for a building permit, it is either accepted or denied.
I_/
h
ft !
t
13.
Brant - He could have said I reviewed the plans and I find they meet with all the
building code requirements. of the City and stop - He got carried away.
If you read it on its face the ball game would be over.
Kiedis
kilmy - all you have to do is repudiate parts that it is not factual.
Brant - Which he will. He and I have a meeting tomorrow morning. I am sure he will.
Kiedis - What he meant was that all the building --
Wiley - This is one of the things that I had in my mind when we talk administratively
ten months ago we had a meeting amongst the Council and City Manager at that time.
We resolved some understandings or we asked questions - - -end of tape.
The Manager had a better understanding of what the Council expected of him and in
turn the Council had a better understanding of how the administration of theCity
is supposed to work. Things in the past several months here prior to George coming
on board we had occasion to have a member of the Council to act as an acting City
Manager in relationship between Councilman and City Manager and the Department Heals
took on a different business like arrangement than it would normally with a new
Manager on board. So one of the objectives I have in mind to night is to try and
Clarify for George exactly how we feel - we would like to see things run - how wer
and the Council in return
would like to see the relationship between the Council and himself - one of the
things I would expect on a letter like Jack put out was anything that goes out
to the public across your desk for acknowledgement administratively - it doesn't
have to show this on the face of the document but as far as the Council is concerned
if you read the code and everything else we have one person we deal with - that is
the Manager - the Manager in turn hires and fires everybody -some of them with the
concurrence of the Council The Manager is the key administrator - he is the
Chief Administrator officer _ the Mayor is the Chief executive officer. There is a
subtle difference.